Sisterhood Heals with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Welcome back stitchers! Today Lisa welcomes Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy for Black Girls to discuss her new book ‘Sisterhood Heals’ and the journey of creating it. She explains how the book captures the spirit of an in-person event focused on conversations about sisterhood and challenges us to be better to and for one another. Dr. Joy emphasizes the importance of sisterhood as a vibrant life force for Black women and the need to navigate the challenges that come with it. The conversation urges us to evolve as advocates for one another, emphasizing the pivotal role sisterhood plays as a life force for Black women and delving into the challenges inherent in this potent bond. We journey through insights on building resilient communities, managing disappointments, and embracing the therapeutic power of creative expression. The dialogue pivots towards the significance of Therapy for Black Girls, highlighting the importance of embracing growth and the transformative power of the therapeutic process. The episode concludes with a powerful focus on actionable steps and the perpetual journey of nurturing sisterhood in our lives. Join us for a riveting conversation guided by the wisdom and warmth of Dr. Joy Harden Bradford.

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Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford is a Licensed Psychologist and the host of the wildly popular, award-winning mental health podcast Therapy for Black Girls. Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible for Black women, and she delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. Named by Glamour as a Game Changer for her work in the mental health field, she received her Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Xavier University of Louisiana, her Master’s degree in Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling from Arkansas State, and her PhD in Counseling Psychology from the University of Georgia. Her work has been featured in Essence, Oprah Daily, The New York Times, HuffPost, Black Enterprise, and Women’s Health. Dr. Joy lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with her husband and two sons.

Purchase Sisterhood Heals

Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hey everybody and welcome to the Stitch

Please podcast.

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I'm your host, Lisa Woolfork.

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And as I say every week, this is a very

special episode, but for real, for real,

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this one is like, for real, for real

special, because I am talking with none

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other than the Dr.

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Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed clinical

psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, who has

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created a platform that not only saves us,

but helps us save ourselves.

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And has-

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rooted such a gorgeous community in what

feels like freedom, that it is a blessing

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to start this year and to start this, I

don't know, this season of our lives with

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the book that Dr.

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Joy has brought into the world, Sisterhood

Heals.

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Welcome Dr.

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Joy to the Stitch Please podcast.

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Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.

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I love a beautiful introduction.

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Well, it was easy to do because you have

created something that is like a fountain.

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It's a book, but it's not a book to be

read.

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It is a book to be savored.

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It is a book to be read and reread that

even in preparing for the interview, I

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went back and it was like I was in

graduate school again.

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I got all these tabs and underlines and

highlights and questions and...

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arrows.

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And it was because the book took me

through a journey.

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And I wanted to start our conversation

today with how you, in terms of

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formulating the book or the idea for the

book, what was the first step for you in

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that journey?

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So Lisa, I don't know if you've heard this

story before, but Sisterhood Heals was

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actually designed to be an in-person

experience.

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So the community had been asking for like

an in-person activity or like a conference

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kind of thing.

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And so we were planning to do that in

2020.

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And then of course we know what happened

in 2020.

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Right, right.

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So we were hoping, so Sisterhood Heals was

the name of what the event was going to

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be.

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And so of course, after we were in the

pandemic, I had a conversation with my

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literary agent about, well, what were you

planning to cover that weekend?

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Like, what did you want that weekend to be

about?

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And so through conversations with her, it

actually became the outline for the book.

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So the book really is kind of a...

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It follows an outline of what I wanted to

have happen that weekend, but not closely,

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right?

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Cause clearly all that's in the book could

not have been covered in a weekend, but it

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really kind of captures the spirit of what

I would have liked to have happened in

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that in-person event, which is

conversations about sisterhood, a

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celebration of who we are to one another,

but also some gentle challenges about how

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we could be better to and for one another.

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And I'm so glad you explained that because

it helps me to better understand why the

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book feels so enveloping.

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It feels as though when my reading

experience was one of feeling as if I was

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being held.

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There were so many points where you were

able to direct our attention to how Black

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women

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and sisterhood itself became a necessary

strategy, a necessary thing for our own,

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not just survival, but thriving.

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And you don't shy away from the difficult

things.

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And I will, I want to get to that in the

course of this conversation, but I want to

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just look really quickly, y'all, on page,

on page XV, that's page 15 in the.

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Roman numerals as part of the delightful

introduction.

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I'm gonna do a terrible job reading this

because I am not Dr.

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Joy.

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But she talks about sisterhood as such a

vibrant life force for black women.

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It is sacred and as such it is important

for us to pay attention to the things that

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make it difficult and do a better job of

navigating those challenges so that it can

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continue to be what we need to get through

the world together.

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And it's that even that one sentence just

made me feel like

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I am in good hands.

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I knew that already.

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But there was something about that

sentence.

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Can you talk a bit about how the

transformation from you wanted this to be

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an event, but it also feels like it's such

a beautiful, almost consolidation of the

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Therapy for Black Girls project as a

whole, that even if, you know, even though

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the event was canceled, it's like this

is...

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a component of that or a giant, a platform

for that or like, I don't know.

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It's just feels like a, it's a reason that

this book feels like an event.

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It feels like an event.

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It feels like a multifaceted party.

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I'm laughing one minute, I'm boohooing the

next.

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And, you know, asking myself the same

questions all along.

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I'm like, oh my gosh, she got shushed off

the back porch too, because she got

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discovered mind and grown people's

business.

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Like these little things.

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that happened to us, that we just don't, I

don't know, that none of this is in

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isolation.

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So can you talk just a bit about the angle

of the whole project that you've created

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and how you're helping us to hold one

another, both in accountability and love?

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Yeah.

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So I think, you know, the book cannot be

divorced from the time at which I wrote

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it, which was in the pandemic, right?

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And so, you know, while sisterhood has

been important and I do really feel like

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has been the foundation of all the things

that we have done at Therapy for Black

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Girls, it feels like at the time I was

writing the book, we were all kind of in a

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tizzy, right?

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Like we didn't really know what was

happening, you know, everything felt

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really anxious.

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But even in that, there were so many

beautiful examples of sisters stepping up

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for one another, right?

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So there were no shortage of, you know,

GoFundMe's and people going to get

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medicine for sisters in their neighborhood

and like doing Zoom daycare sessions with

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the kids in the neighborhood.

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Like just all of these ways that we

already knew that Black women typically

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show up for one another, we were seeing in

real time.

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And I think it became more magnified

because

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at the same time, we were also seeing all

these systems that I think maybe many of

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us thought would be there to save us.

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We realized that like we really are all we

got, right?

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Like when we say like we all we got, I

think the pandemic really showed us that

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in real time.

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And so the book really is, I think, an

attempt.

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I always say an attempt to give language

to that thing that I think often feels

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really hard to give language to.

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that happens between Black women, right?

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Like we kind of know it, I think, you

know, in some ways, but it has often felt

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intangible and like really difficult to

put into words.

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But I really felt like it was important

for there to be words, right?

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Like as a psychologist, I know that this

thing that happens with Black women is

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something that needs to be documented,

that there needs to be some kind of

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theory, some kind of language, some kind

of like, okay, if it's in a book.

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then I can point to this as actual and

factual.

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And so the book really is an attempt to

kind of give some grounding and to give

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some language to this thing that I think

we often do so naturally, but also again,

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an invitation to how we can lean more into

sisterhood to be a healing space for us.

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I am so moved by this because in many

ways, the story of Black Women's Stitch is

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the story of Sisterhood Heals.

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It is the story of recovery from racial

justice organizing and white supremacist

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terrorism and all of these things.

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And for me, as someone who was reading it,

I just felt like even though I did not

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have this book at the time of that

experience,

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it was about three years after you founded

Therapy for Black Girls, that I do have

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this experience.

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And it just mapped on so beautifully that

it made me realize that what you've

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created is equipping.

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It is a resource.

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And so I thank you for...

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You know, you talk just a bit about the

citational practice.

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Someone needs to cite this book or someone

needs to refer to it or whatever, but it

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also needs to exist as an affirmation and

a guide and a sign of possibility.

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And that's another like really powerful

element of this work.

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I love how you bridge, um, press fact and

fiction.

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You know, I really love the series that

you did on Insecure.

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And if you were team Issa or team Molly

and working through their relationships.

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And I think it was also pandemic time,

perhaps, because a lot of us, I just felt

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like I finally got into Insecure after

that and was very much invested in this

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friendship.

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Like I knew these girls.

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Like, I don't know, how they gonna figure

this out?

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And why would she say that?

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Oh my God, you know, like really invested.

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But I think it also becomes a platform for

how we can work out some issues ourselves.

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Can you talk a bit about why you like to

use popular culture or why you thought

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Insecure was a good vehicle to discuss

these things?

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, I think, Lisa, pop culture just,

well, one, I spend a lot of time watching

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and reading and listening to stuff, so it

feels like a good way to, like, make use

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of all these things that I'm spending time

doing.

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But I think pop culture is often so

accessible, right?

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Like, you know, so many people were

watching Intercure.

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Like, we are all often watching and

listening to the same things.

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And I think when you see themes like that

present on a screen like that, right, like

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where we are following the story of these

people.

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it makes it easy for you to kind of like

talk about the characters in a way that

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like doesn't necessarily implicate you,

but you know that it has some implications

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for your real life.

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Right.

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And so I think that storyline between

Molly and Issa was so impactful to a lot

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of black women because it is one of the

only instances I can think of where we saw

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like a friendship breakup that felt so

raw.

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And I feel like there's been so many

conversations about breakups with friends

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and like, that has just been kind of in

the ethos for the past couple of years.

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And so I think when we saw it on Insecure,

it was just a beautiful way to kind of

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talk about these things that often happen

with black women, but that maybe we didn't

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have examples for, or like, oh, you're not

supposed to talk about that in public,

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right?

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And so being able to use the story of

these characters really made it easy to

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kind of dissect like, okay, what would you

do in this example and who was wrong here?

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And how would you take accountability?

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culture gives us a lens and an end to be

able to talk about maybe some more

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difficult things without it being talking

about us.

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And I agree with that so much.

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And it also, even if we step back and look

at Insecure itself, the idea of being

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something that we hadn't seen before,

because this is a black woman creating

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this.

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This is a black woman with a black team

and a black cast and a black photo

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director, black lighting, someone who

knows how to light dark skin, black

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people.

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So we look gorgeous like we do in real

life.

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I think that's another thing that made

Insecure a kind of cultural property, but

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also a form of cultural affirmation, a

form of recognition that we can see our

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lives.

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You know, the ridiculous friend, I think

it was this really hilarious line, I'm not

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sure if it was Issa's brother said to

Kelly, do you listen to yourself?

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And she said, yeah, I got a podcast.

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Yes.

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Right, right.

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of course I listened to myself.

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Like it just all felt so familiar and how

we deserve that, that even the show itself

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is a sign of sisterhood, a sign of

sisterhood, a sisterhood heals.

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I wonder if we could talk a little bit

about some of the ways that we can build

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community.

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I thought that, I think that's something

that a lot of people are very interested

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in.

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I consider Black Women's Stitch a

community and trying to, you know, to

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cultivate this and to grow and to develop

events and to do all these other elements.

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How do you, how do you advise folks who

are looking to find community, to help, to

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build it, to help ask the questions, to

find folks of common interest?

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How do you advise us to work on building

community?

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Do we activate what we already have or

what we think we have?

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How do we get started?

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, I mean, if there is something around

you, then I definitely would encourage you

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to activate what's already there, because

I think sometimes we make the mistake of

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like going out to look for something that

is already kind of around.

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So I typically encourage people to look at

the foreground of their lives.

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because there could be people already in

the foreground that with a little bit of

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work, you could bring to the, I mean, look

in the background to bring them to the

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foreground, right?

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So maybe there's a mom that you see in the

carpool line, or there's somebody who sits

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next to you in yoga, right?

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Like, can you take the step to say like,

hey, can we grab a smoothie after class?

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Or hey, do you wanna get breakfast after

we drop the kids off, right?

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Like sometimes it requires us to take some

steps.

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that we may feel a little uncomfortable

about, right?

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Cause nobody wants to be rejected.

225

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But if you want to get something

different, then sometimes you have to make

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different choices.

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So I definitely would encourage that.

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But I also think that social media is just

a beautiful way to like tap into the

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things that you're interested in, right?

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So just like you have.

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Black women stitch.

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I mean, like I have therapy for black

girls.

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Like there's so many communities and

things that black women have created and

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kind of offered to us that anything that

you are interested in, you are likely able

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to find a black woman who has started some

kind of community or some kind of thing

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for other people who like those things to

also be a part of.

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And so just spending a little bit of time

searching on Instagram through hashtags

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and stuff like that, or Facebook groups

can be a great way for you to kind of just

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meet other people that are interested in

the kinds of things that you are.

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I love that.

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I think that is so rich and it also lets

us to kind of look around, like you said,

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where we are, the things we're already

doing, and look in a different direction.

243

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It doesn't require like a radical life

revamp in order to do these things.

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I was thinking about, you do such a

wonderful job of setting up scenarios that

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allow us to think about, huh, what would I

do?

246

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And...

247

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This is a question that came up because as

I was reading, there was a group of

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friends and they were very much team, no

new friend.

249

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And then a new friend brought one of their

friends around.

250

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And then like the woman was like, I don't

know if I even want to go around with

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these people cause why she got to come

out?

252

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I don't even know her like that and da da.

253

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And you did such a wonderful job

explaining about how the friend who

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brought the new friend in could have, you

know, maybe give some, give some people

255

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some heads up, just to say, hey.

256

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you know, I want to kind of bring her or I

don't know.

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I just, I love how you don't shy away from

these problems because it somehow, it

258

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feels like if you have problems in your

relationships or in your friendships, your

259

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relationships are broken or wrong.

260

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What does it mean to help us see and

identify these troubles and how to develop

261

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ways through them?

262

00:16:17,854 --> 00:16:22,475

Yeah, you know, Lisa, I think that we are

far too quick to kind of like cut people

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off, or like you said, to think that if

anything's trouble, that means this

264

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relationship is not worth it, right?

265

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But the truth of it is that we are all

human.

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We're not robots as magical as black girls

or we're not actually superhuman, right?

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And so that means we bring in all of our

baggage, all of our stuff, all of our

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history.

269

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We're bringing all of that to our

relationships with one another.

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And I think that we could do a better job

of offering grace.

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to one another and not shying away from

the difficult conversations.

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Like the first sign of trouble does not

mean that the relationship needs to end.

273

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It may just be an opportunity for you to

say like, ouch, this thing hurt and can we

274

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talk about it?

275

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Right, so that example of, you know, no

new friends and like somebody works with

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somebody and they're like, oh, I think my

girls would love you.

277

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I'll bring you to happy hour.

278

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Well, you gotta give people a heads up

about that, right?

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Because...

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Who is this person and why is she here in

our sacred space, right?

281

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You know, and so I don't think that it is

the case of them not necessarily wanting

282

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to maybe get to know her, but it's the

fact that you didn't really set her up for

283

00:17:23,931 --> 00:17:25,012

success, right?

284

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So could you say, hey, there's this cool

girl that I work with, I'd love to be able

285

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to invite her in two weeks, I think you

all would enjoy her.

286

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And then giving them the opportunities to

say like, oh yeah, sure, bring her or.

287

00:17:36,846 --> 00:17:37,746

know about that, right?

288

00:17:37,746 --> 00:17:39,928

And then you'll all can have a

conversation about it.

289

00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:43,590

But if you take away people's option to

actually have a conversation about it,

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then you are making it less likely that

they are going to welcome her kind of into

291

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the fold.

292

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And I think, of course, you are so right.

293

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I think this whole interview could just be

like, yeah, you're right, mm-hmm, yes.

294

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And then just repeat that over and over.

295

00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,038

I don't have to say any other, no

transition's necessary.

296

00:18:02,378 --> 00:18:03,619

The answer is always Dr.

297

00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:06,340

Joyce obviously right, gosh.

298

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But I think it's the discomfort and the

idea that when you talk about sacred and

299

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thinking of sisterhood as sacred, there

are some ways that...

300

00:18:16,563 --> 00:18:21,626

Some want a sacred experience that is also

trouble free.

301

00:18:22,828 --> 00:18:28,312

And that sacred doesn't necessarily mean

that, you know?

302

00:18:28,312 --> 00:18:32,075

And that when you have something that is

so, well, maybe I can ask you to talk a

303

00:18:32,075 --> 00:18:33,276

little bit about that.

304

00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:41,483

How does the sanctity or the sacredness of

a sisterly space or accommodate challenge

305

00:18:41,483 --> 00:18:44,845

or difficulty or expansion or contraction?

306

00:18:44,845 --> 00:18:46,447

Like, how does that?

307

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show up and maintain that sacredness,

because it seems as though it's made

308

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sacred by the people who are

participating.

309

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It doesn't just exist sacredness by

itself.

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So I would love to hear more about that.

311

00:19:00,518 --> 00:19:05,043

Yeah, I honestly think that the ability to

withstand some discomfort and challenge is

312

00:19:05,043 --> 00:19:08,567

what makes it sacred and what adds to the

sanctity, right?

313

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So I think in sisterhood, it is one of

those places where we can kind of practice

314

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being the more prickly, what I call

prickly versions of ourselves, right?

315

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So those parts of ourselves that

316

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We don't even want to admit the parts that

we know we can be a little clingy or we

317

00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:24,417

can be a little annoying or whatever.

318

00:19:24,417 --> 00:19:27,498

Like our relationships with other black

women are often where we can kind of

319

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practice what that behavior feels like to

other people and then to maybe get some

320

00:19:31,641 --> 00:19:35,103

feedback about, hey, that's kind of

annoying when you do that, but that

321

00:19:35,103 --> 00:19:37,944

doesn't mean I don't love you still,

right?

322

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And so I think that being able to kind of

be all of who we are in relationships with

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other sisters is what really allows for

that sacredness, right?

324

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I can be all of who I am and I may

aggravate people, I may annoy people, they

325

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may even be mad at me, but that doesn't

mean they don't love me.

326

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And so I think that it's a good sign when

there's conflict, right?

327

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That means that people are invested enough

to disagree with you, right?

328

00:20:05,107 --> 00:20:09,110

If it is only a situation where you're

always agreeing and everything is hunky

329

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dory, so to speak, then is there really

space for growth in that kind of a

330

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relationship?

331

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That's so powerful because I think

wholeness is an essential part for me of

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liberation.

333

00:20:27,486 --> 00:20:34,989

It's too often that black women find our

lives fragmented into either our roles,

334

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like a wife, mom, professional, whatever.

335

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But also...

336

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Just the things that impact the,

patriarchy, for example, damages us as

337

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women.

338

00:20:48,424 --> 00:20:53,569

White supremacy damages us as black

people.

339

00:20:53,569 --> 00:21:01,055

These things that show up, and it's really

difficult to shoulder the burden of it, or

340

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to thrive through it if you aren't whole.

341

00:21:05,579 --> 00:21:10,262

And so the idea of us bringing our

wholeness to each other.

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I think that's another one of the elements

of the sacredness.

343

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And I do love how the book, Sisterhood

Heals, advocates for us to be made whole

344

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through one another.

345

00:21:23,935 --> 00:21:28,738

And you have this beautiful, I think it's

a line from Gwendolyn Brooks, and as she

346

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talks about we are each other's harvest,

we are each other's business, we are each

347

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other's magnitude and bond.

348

00:21:37,607 --> 00:21:39,367

Y'all read y'all some Gwendolyn Brooks.

349

00:21:39,367 --> 00:21:40,807

She's one of my favorites.

350

00:21:40,807 --> 00:21:41,848

Read Maude Martha.

351

00:21:41,848 --> 00:21:42,848

I'll put a link in the chat.

352

00:21:42,848 --> 00:21:43,728

It's a novella.

353

00:21:43,728 --> 00:21:44,489

You gotta read it.

354

00:21:44,489 --> 00:21:45,849

It's like her only novella.

355

00:21:45,849 --> 00:21:46,749

She wanted to pull it.

356

00:21:46,749 --> 00:21:49,170

Anyway, back to track.

357

00:21:49,630 --> 00:21:55,472

Can you talk about, can you tell us a bit

about what it means to be each other's

358

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magnitude?

359

00:21:56,692 --> 00:21:59,893

Like that, you know, we are each other's

burden and magnitude.

360

00:21:59,893 --> 00:22:04,914

There was something about the gravity of

magnitude as a word there that I think

361

00:22:04,914 --> 00:22:06,214

your book.

362

00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:08,409

really reflects.

363

00:22:08,409 --> 00:22:10,551

It reflects a magnitude.

364

00:22:10,631 --> 00:22:14,977

Can you share a little bit about what you

think that quote means and why you used it

365

00:22:14,977 --> 00:22:16,858

to start that section of the work?

366

00:22:17,646 --> 00:22:17,906

Mm-hmm.

367

00:22:17,906 --> 00:22:19,567

Well, one, I just love that quote.

368

00:22:19,567 --> 00:22:21,708

That is also one of my favorites.

369

00:22:21,989 --> 00:22:23,450

And I think it's so true, right?

370

00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:28,213

Like, I think that there is no denying,

like, the power that happens when Black

371

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women come together.

372

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And so this idea that we kind of need to

operate in silos and like, OK, you do your

373

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stuff over there and I do my stuff over

here.

374

00:22:36,939 --> 00:22:40,161

Like, we don't get anywhere further.

375

00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:44,312

if we are not actually invested in each

other's health, each other's wellness,

376

00:22:44,312 --> 00:22:48,354

each other's lives, and we know that we go

further together.

377

00:22:48,354 --> 00:22:52,317

And so this idea that we need to be

separate and not actually kind of

378

00:22:52,317 --> 00:22:56,159

involving ourselves with each other, I

think is not accurate.

379

00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:59,521

And we know that is not historically how

we have survived, right?

380

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There is a reason there is such a rich

history of black women's relationships

381

00:23:03,864 --> 00:23:05,004

with one another.

382

00:23:05,004 --> 00:23:07,138

And I don't think that if it's not broke,

383

00:23:07,138 --> 00:23:08,638

then we don't need to fix it, right?

384

00:23:08,638 --> 00:23:13,559

And so how can we continue with this rich

history of really being able to show up

385

00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:19,781

with one another, show up for one another,

especially again, in light of all these

386

00:23:19,781 --> 00:23:22,762

systems that are not actually working in

our favors, right?

387

00:23:22,762 --> 00:23:28,664

Like there is just so much work left to be

done, so much care that needs to be given.

388

00:23:28,664 --> 00:23:32,865

And I think that we are the only ones in a

lot of ways who are equipped to be able to

389

00:23:32,865 --> 00:23:34,945

do that with and for one another.

390

00:23:36,951 --> 00:23:43,452

And I think in thinking about some of the

responsibilities, I wonder if we could

391

00:23:43,452 --> 00:23:47,134

talk a little bit about some of those, the

challenges.

392

00:23:47,134 --> 00:23:53,455

And I think part of it is you do such a

beautiful job talking about our cultural

393

00:23:53,455 --> 00:24:01,498

conditioning, the ways that black women

are, many of us have, I speak for myself,

394

00:24:01,718 --> 00:24:03,818

a certain type of loyalty.

395

00:24:04,323 --> 00:24:08,506

a certain type of belief that we don't

want to do anything because of our

396

00:24:08,506 --> 00:24:10,808

corporate identity, the group identity.

397

00:24:10,808 --> 00:24:14,770

I think you used the word for it that I

don't think I ever knew before that talk

398

00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:19,894

about how black women, or black people in

general don't want to make the race look

399

00:24:19,894 --> 00:24:20,394

bad.

400

00:24:20,394 --> 00:24:24,197

Or, like if one person does something

good, it's like, oh, good for that one

401

00:24:24,197 --> 00:24:24,578

person.

402

00:24:24,578 --> 00:24:27,840

But if one of us does something bad, it's

all of us.

403

00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,602

And so I'm wondering like how...

404

00:24:32,251 --> 00:24:41,335

we get past that toward the healing to be

able to say, as you said, this is

405

00:24:41,735 --> 00:24:46,078

difficult or this is painful, or when we

feel disappointed, when we feel

406

00:24:46,078 --> 00:24:52,101

disappointed in our sisters, when we feel

like you're not someone who's interested

407

00:24:52,101 --> 00:24:55,502

in community, you think of community as a

commodity.

408

00:24:55,675 --> 00:25:00,577

And now, you had that wonderful story

about that poor woman who had really loved

409

00:25:00,577 --> 00:25:04,660

this woman, this sister, and admired her

work, and just had some questions about

410

00:25:04,660 --> 00:25:08,722

her 9999 program that she was selling.

411

00:25:08,722 --> 00:25:12,884

And the lady went off on her and then took

her post as an example.

412

00:25:12,884 --> 00:25:16,387

And this why y'all ain't going to never

make no money, because you don't want to

413

00:25:16,387 --> 00:25:17,287

pay nothing.

414

00:25:17,287 --> 00:25:22,630

You know, like, OK, girl, now I'm really

glad I paused on that.

415

00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:22,773

But.

416

00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:23,413

ha ha.

417

00:25:23,443 --> 00:25:27,727

about how do we handle our disappointments

or even being very frustrated at the

418

00:25:27,727 --> 00:25:35,476

honeypot lady when she changed the formula

for the wash or whatever, these kinds of

419

00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:40,822

things that we invest so much and then

sometimes we get disappointed.

420

00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:45,486

How do you advise us to kind of get to go

through that or to manage that?

421

00:25:46,015 --> 00:25:51,299

Yeah, so I think we have to first be okay

with honoring the disappointment, right?

422

00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:55,063

Because I think what often happens is that

we feel these feelings that feel shameful,

423

00:25:55,063 --> 00:25:55,263

right?

424

00:25:55,263 --> 00:25:58,706

Like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way about

another black woman, but it's okay.

425

00:25:58,706 --> 00:26:01,328

Like, feelings are just information,

right?

426

00:26:01,328 --> 00:26:03,610

So it's okay to feel however you're

feeling.

427

00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:07,333

What really is the issue, though, is then

what do you do with those feelings, right?

428

00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:11,176

So we can allow for space to be

disappointed and to check in with

429

00:26:11,176 --> 00:26:11,777

ourselves.

430

00:26:11,777 --> 00:26:12,746

I think about...

431

00:26:12,746 --> 00:26:15,147

what's actually coming up for me in this

moment, right?

432

00:26:15,147 --> 00:26:19,930

Because while it looks like it is about

the honeypot challenge or changing the

433

00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:24,372

formula, what is, if you dig a little

deeper, we're not really still talking

434

00:26:24,372 --> 00:26:26,053

about a cleaner.

435

00:26:26,053 --> 00:26:31,317

Now we're talking about a sense of

betrayal or a sense of being abandoned or

436

00:26:31,317 --> 00:26:32,437

left behind, right?

437

00:26:32,437 --> 00:26:33,137

Like...

438

00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:37,854

When we see these kinds of reactions that

are disproportionate to the thing that has

439

00:26:37,854 --> 00:26:41,697

happened, usually there's an indication

that something else is going on.

440

00:26:41,697 --> 00:26:46,321

And I think we can only get to that if we

are quiet and still and actually sit down

441

00:26:46,321 --> 00:26:49,704

with ourselves to say, why am I

disappointed here?

442

00:26:49,704 --> 00:26:51,366

And then what can I do about it, right?

443

00:26:51,366 --> 00:26:56,690

So I typically think that like social

media posts and like going public with

444

00:26:56,690 --> 00:27:00,513

these kinds of things are typically not at

least the first response.

445

00:27:00,594 --> 00:27:03,897

Because you probably have not sat down

with yourself long enough to kind of work

446

00:27:03,897 --> 00:27:07,941

through whatever is happening But going to

your trusted group chat or talking with a

447

00:27:07,941 --> 00:27:12,186

therapist about it about what is coming up

for you can actually help you To kind of

448

00:27:12,186 --> 00:27:17,111

figure out okay What needs to be happening

here and I think on the other side if you

449

00:27:17,111 --> 00:27:22,056

are somebody who has seen community as a

commodity I think you also need to check

450

00:27:22,056 --> 00:27:24,182

yourself to kind of think about

451

00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:29,565

how you are weaponizing this thing that we

know black women readily and loyally kind

452

00:27:29,565 --> 00:27:33,308

of give, right, like we will ride into the

wheels fall off for a black woman's

453

00:27:33,308 --> 00:27:34,049

business.

454

00:27:34,049 --> 00:27:38,232

But does that mean then as the business

owner, you get to discard this community

455

00:27:38,232 --> 00:27:40,413

when they are of no use to you anymore,

right?

456

00:27:40,413 --> 00:27:45,517

Like I think as a black woman who is

building a business that is like catering

457

00:27:45,517 --> 00:27:49,380

to black women, you do have a different

code of ethics.

458

00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:51,446

I think that you just do because...

459

00:27:51,446 --> 00:27:56,388

You can't want to use community when it is

in your advantage and then want to just,

460

00:27:56,388 --> 00:27:59,909

you know, kind of discard the community

when they try to hold you accountable.

461

00:27:59,909 --> 00:28:01,490

It's like, you can't have both.

462

00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:04,171

So either make a product that everybody

can use.

463

00:28:04,171 --> 00:28:09,013

And if the black girls get on, then fine,

but don't use us as a way to kind of build

464

00:28:09,013 --> 00:28:12,194

your business and then say like, okay,

I've made my millions now.

465

00:28:12,194 --> 00:28:13,494

Like I'm off to the next thing.

466

00:28:13,494 --> 00:28:18,016

Like I think you do have a different level

of responsibility when you are building a

467

00:28:18,016 --> 00:28:21,477

business that caters specifically to black

people.

468

00:28:23,683 --> 00:28:29,985

I could not agree more because as you

said, that we have a certain type of, we

469

00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:33,866

have a really strong loyalty, especially

to brand and products.

470

00:28:33,866 --> 00:28:38,087

I was talking to my sister about this and

it's like, we use Tide because my mama

471

00:28:38,087 --> 00:28:39,427

used Tide.

472

00:28:39,427 --> 00:28:40,188

That's what we use.

473

00:28:40,188 --> 00:28:44,869

And then she, Lord, then she switched to

Gain and it was a bit of a crisis.

474

00:28:44,869 --> 00:28:47,667

And I was like, well, I guess now we use

Gain?

475

00:28:47,667 --> 00:28:48,953

use game now.

476

00:28:50,643 --> 00:28:55,446

Legit, we all, me and my sisters all use

game because mama started using game.

477

00:28:55,446 --> 00:28:58,407

And clearly, I mean, who's not gonna do

what she's doing?

478

00:28:58,407 --> 00:28:59,388

Like what?

479

00:28:59,408 --> 00:29:02,450

So it was, I think that you're so right

about that.

480

00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:05,912

I wanted to pivot to talk a bit about

creative liberation.

481

00:29:05,912 --> 00:29:09,794

And this brings us back to some of the

sewing and crafts elements.

482

00:29:09,794 --> 00:29:12,316

And as quiet as it's kept, you did sew

something.

483

00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:13,857

You have sewn.

484

00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:16,558

I'd love to know more if you have a

sewing.

485

00:29:16,751 --> 00:29:18,071

I would love to know Dr.

486

00:29:18,071 --> 00:29:19,431

Joy's sewing story.

487

00:29:19,431 --> 00:29:23,792

This is, I'm sure what everybody's really

excited for is yes, she wrote this really

488

00:29:23,792 --> 00:29:27,674

great book, it's best seller, it's

amazing, it'll change your life, but do

489

00:29:27,674 --> 00:29:29,034

you sew though?

490

00:29:29,254 --> 00:29:30,674

That's what they're gonna be asking.

491

00:29:30,674 --> 00:29:33,475

So I did vet her beforehand, friends.

492

00:29:33,475 --> 00:29:36,216

She did make a skirt in middle school or a

tote bag or something.

493

00:29:36,216 --> 00:29:38,136

So she's got some bona fides.

494

00:29:38,837 --> 00:29:43,318

But tell us about your sewing story such

as it is.

495

00:29:43,318 --> 00:29:45,631

You're among friends, it's a safe space.

496

00:29:45,631 --> 00:29:49,053

We tapped into this when you were a guest

on Therapy for Black Girls, but your story

497

00:29:49,053 --> 00:29:52,074

really reminded me of taking home

economics in high school.

498

00:29:52,074 --> 00:29:56,257

So in ninth grade, we had home economics

and one of the units was sewing.

499

00:29:56,257 --> 00:30:00,519

And so we made this pair of boxer shorts

that I think probably fell apart, you

500

00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:02,480

know, within like three washes.

501

00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,438

But it was enough for me to be able to

like...

502

00:30:05,438 --> 00:30:09,779

stitch enough so that I remember my dad

had a hole in a t-shirt or whatever and I

503

00:30:09,779 --> 00:30:14,540

stitched it up with like green thread on a

white t-shirt which was hilarious.

504

00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:19,542

But one of my fondest memories of sewing

is not necessarily my own, it is my

505

00:30:19,542 --> 00:30:20,862

grandmother's.

506

00:30:21,242 --> 00:30:26,123

So I remember, so I'm from Louisiana, I

talk about that all throughout the book,

507

00:30:26,223 --> 00:30:30,885

and my the men in my family are

historically welders.

508

00:30:30,905 --> 00:30:33,905

And so you know I remember many nights

509

00:30:33,918 --> 00:30:40,020

Yeah, my grandmother like up, patching up

my uncle's jeans, because like, you know,

510

00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:42,681

they had been on the ship or whatever and

had gotten a hole in the jeans.

511

00:30:42,681 --> 00:30:46,663

And so she would always be doing all this

stitching and patching up jeans.

512

00:30:46,663 --> 00:30:50,145

And so I do come from a family of people

who have done some sewing.

513

00:30:50,145 --> 00:30:56,187

And I remember my mom made me my favorite

Halloween costume, maybe in like third or

514

00:30:56,187 --> 00:31:01,829

fourth grade, it was a Raggedy Ann costume

that I loved so, so much.

515

00:31:02,218 --> 00:31:07,426

Yeah, so I come from a family of so is,

but I have not necessarily like gotten

516

00:31:07,426 --> 00:31:11,432

back into that, but I do enough to be able

to like put a button back on my kids

517

00:31:11,432 --> 00:31:14,035

jacket or, you know, something like that.

518

00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:15,731

That's great.

519

00:31:15,731 --> 00:31:16,912

Because I hate putting buttons.

520

00:31:16,912 --> 00:31:18,874

My kids be buttonless because I hate that.

521

00:31:18,874 --> 00:31:20,815

I'm like, oh, really?

522

00:31:20,815 --> 00:31:22,877

It's so boring.

523

00:31:23,998 --> 00:31:24,999

Mm hmm.

524

00:31:24,999 --> 00:31:26,921

I too bad you don't live closer friend.

525

00:31:26,921 --> 00:31:27,881

Too bad.

526

00:31:27,881 --> 00:31:28,522

I'm like, you know what?

527

00:31:28,522 --> 00:31:31,504

Right over the doctor, Joy, she loved

putting buttons on stuff.

528

00:31:33,226 --> 00:31:33,987

Absolutely.

529

00:31:33,987 --> 00:31:34,347

Yes.

530

00:31:34,347 --> 00:31:36,849

My poor spouse, they got to go out and get

there.

531

00:31:36,849 --> 00:31:38,511

I'm like, oh, these pants need to be

hemmed.

532

00:31:38,511 --> 00:31:39,311

I'm like, you know what?

533

00:31:39,311 --> 00:31:40,212

Cleaners is only $12.

534

00:31:40,212 --> 00:31:41,333

You got $12.

535

00:31:41,333 --> 00:31:42,994

I will absolutely.

536

00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:44,259

And they'll do it for you.

537

00:31:44,259 --> 00:31:46,160

I certainly don't want to.

538

00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:53,283

So, but I, one of the things I love about

it is that the, the act of sewing is one

539

00:31:53,283 --> 00:31:58,505

thing that I'm arguing is as Audrey Lord

talks about in her, you've mentioned this

540

00:31:58,505 --> 00:32:02,246

as well, that the master's tools will

never dismantle the master's house.

541

00:32:02,727 --> 00:32:07,969

And so I've developed this idea that

sewing is an example of something that is

542

00:32:07,969 --> 00:32:10,830

antithetical to master's tools.

543

00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:12,667

Anything can be co-opted.

544

00:32:12,667 --> 00:32:18,850

but the needle and thread has been

consigned to a realm of service that the

545

00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:21,791

master, quote unquote, doesn't deploy.

546

00:32:21,992 --> 00:32:25,454

He might control it, but doesn't do it

themselves.

547

00:32:25,454 --> 00:32:33,158

And so it feels like a liberatory act to

just, to put, almost like putting pen to

548

00:32:33,158 --> 00:32:36,860

paper, you know, to kind of to write

something, to express something.

549

00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:41,147

I feel that way about needle and thread

and fabric and, you know,

550

00:32:41,147 --> 00:32:46,091

creating something that was not there

before, did not exist before I made it,

551

00:32:46,091 --> 00:32:46,911

you know?

552

00:32:46,911 --> 00:32:52,716

And so there's something I think

inherently healing in some ways about

553

00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:53,036

sewing.

554

00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:55,818

And you see this a lot in the sewing

community.

555

00:32:55,818 --> 00:33:00,082

There are t-shirts and slogans and sewing

is my therapy.

556

00:33:00,082 --> 00:33:03,064

And I'm like, whoa, that is so

inappropriate.

557

00:33:03,765 --> 00:33:05,246

Let us, let's say.

558

00:33:06,299 --> 00:33:07,259

But really, Dr.

559

00:33:07,259 --> 00:33:10,801

Joy, and I guess one of the things I might

ask is about when you talk about therapy

560

00:33:10,801 --> 00:33:14,623

for black girls, it really puts therapy

right up front, you know?

561

00:33:14,623 --> 00:33:19,406

And there has been in the past a historic

reluctance among some black communities,

562

00:33:19,406 --> 00:33:22,748

I'm not going to say all black, but some

black communities, especially some

563

00:33:22,748 --> 00:33:29,512

religious ones who have been kind of, no,

therapy is not something we need or would

564

00:33:29,512 --> 00:33:30,672

do or whatever.

565

00:33:30,672 --> 00:33:34,894

And you've done a powerful job dismantling

that myth.

566

00:33:35,311 --> 00:33:36,751

with this project.

567

00:33:36,811 --> 00:33:42,734

Can you talk a bit about the ways that we

might use creative expression, use art,

568

00:33:42,775 --> 00:33:48,158

use drawing, use piano, use music, use the

things that we do that might not bring us

569

00:33:48,158 --> 00:33:51,059

money, but they bring us pleasure.

570

00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:55,962

How does that serve a therapeutic function

without being like, this is the only thing

571

00:33:55,962 --> 00:33:57,602

I'm going to do to heal my mental health?

572

00:33:58,026 --> 00:33:59,046

Right, right.

573

00:33:59,046 --> 00:34:01,467

Yeah, I love those t-shirts and slogans,

right?

574

00:34:01,467 --> 00:34:05,249

And I often get a good laugh at those

things too, because they are therapeutic,

575

00:34:05,249 --> 00:34:05,429

right?

576

00:34:05,429 --> 00:34:08,530

Like sewing can be therapeutic, running

can be therapeutic, but it is not

577

00:34:08,530 --> 00:34:10,832

necessarily the same thing as therapy,

right?

578

00:34:10,832 --> 00:34:14,613

It's not replacing a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional where

579

00:34:14,613 --> 00:34:17,435

you are talking about things, unpacking

all of those things.

580

00:34:17,435 --> 00:34:19,035

But it is still important.

581

00:34:19,035 --> 00:34:23,397

And to your earlier point, Lisa, you know,

there has been a reluctance to embrace,

582

00:34:23,678 --> 00:34:25,338

like mental health and therapy.

583

00:34:25,338 --> 00:34:26,579

And rightfully so, right?

584

00:34:26,579 --> 00:34:28,339

Like we cannot deny.

585

00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,005

the white supremacy and like the

historical functions of our field.

586

00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,908

But I think what has been so important to

me and really critical for me to do with

587

00:34:37,908 --> 00:34:42,952

Therapy for Black Girls is to talk about

like how we have come from that history,

588

00:34:42,952 --> 00:34:44,834

but this is still for us, right?

589

00:34:44,834 --> 00:34:48,737

Because we know that even though we

weren't calling people therapists in our

590

00:34:48,737 --> 00:34:53,061

ancestral communities, we know that there

have always been healers in our community,

591

00:34:53,061 --> 00:34:53,261

right?

592

00:34:53,261 --> 00:34:53,954

And so.

593

00:34:53,954 --> 00:34:58,317

therapy in the way that we do it now, is

just, I think, a continuation of the

594

00:34:58,317 --> 00:35:00,139

things that our ancestors started.

595

00:35:00,139 --> 00:35:04,722

So even though it did not start from us,

we know that healing has always been our

596

00:35:04,722 --> 00:35:08,125

birthright and that healers have always

been in our communities.

597

00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:12,048

And so therapy for black girls really has

been, I think, a really cool way to kind

598

00:35:12,048 --> 00:35:14,991

of talk about, okay, there is mental

illness, right?

599

00:35:14,991 --> 00:35:18,234

Like, let's talk about the signs of

depression, the signs of anxiety, you

600

00:35:18,234 --> 00:35:22,237

know, what it's like to take medication,

but let's also talk about all these other

601

00:35:22,237 --> 00:35:23,158

things.

602

00:35:23,158 --> 00:35:25,459

that we can do to actually take care of

our mental health.

603

00:35:25,459 --> 00:35:29,303

Because I think for a long time, people

have only thought about mental health as

604

00:35:29,303 --> 00:35:34,187

like the avoidance of illness, as opposed

to let's pay attention to our sleep

605

00:35:34,187 --> 00:35:37,710

hygiene, right, and like how does sleep

impact our mental health?

606

00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:42,014

Let's talk about like movement and how,

you know, our endorphins, you know, get

607

00:35:42,014 --> 00:35:45,236

through the roof when we go for a nice

long walk, or what does it mean to be in

608

00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,540

community and to have close friendship

relationships and how that's also a really

609

00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:51,586

good thing to buffer us from stress.

610

00:35:51,586 --> 00:35:54,230

So there are all these different things

that I think that are really, really

611

00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:55,993

critical to our mental health.

612

00:35:55,993 --> 00:35:59,158

And that's really what therapy for black

girls has been about is to be able to kind

613

00:35:59,158 --> 00:36:03,244

of explore all of those things that we

don't necessarily think about when we

614

00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,646

think about mental health.

615

00:36:06,211 --> 00:36:11,733

And I really appreciate the way that you

think about health and wellness, that it

616

00:36:11,733 --> 00:36:15,314

doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be,

we don't have to think about it in an

617

00:36:15,314 --> 00:36:19,556

extreme, like, Oh, someone's had a break

or you know, something like that, that

618

00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:25,118

it's just, it can, that we deserve that

healing is all wholeness and wellness.

619

00:36:25,118 --> 00:36:29,340

All of these things are things that are,

that belong to us by right.

620

00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,422

Another thing that's so wonderful about

the book in this context is you are

621

00:36:34,422 --> 00:36:35,802

creating.

622

00:36:36,011 --> 00:36:43,375

a practice in the book itself that will

allow, I think, future clinicians as well

623

00:36:43,375 --> 00:36:47,257

as just readers like myself, it is

equipping them as well.

624

00:36:47,257 --> 00:36:53,561

You have built by the ways that you cite

other black women throughout this book,

625

00:36:53,561 --> 00:37:01,245

you dropping Patricia Hill Collins and

Evelyn Higginbotham and all of these

626

00:37:01,245 --> 00:37:04,146

historians, and you are creating

627

00:37:04,427 --> 00:37:10,329

And as we have in ourselves, you are

creating that which should have been there

628

00:37:10,329 --> 00:37:14,891

for us, but never was because we weren't

seen.

629

00:37:15,411 --> 00:37:21,473

And yet again, you are proving, just like

you do with when you look at insecure, you

630

00:37:21,473 --> 00:37:26,796

are proving that we have already been

there in these fields of health and

631

00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,016

wellness and psychology.

632

00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:34,358

And we have contributions that are utterly

unique and necessary.

633

00:37:34,715 --> 00:37:40,319

that allow us to, that allow us to build

what we need.

634

00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:47,104

And you have done that so, just so

beautifully throughout this book.

635

00:37:47,305 --> 00:37:50,327

Were there any parts of it, of the writing

process?

636

00:37:50,327 --> 00:37:53,750

I'd love to hear more about that as

someone who is finished starting a book

637

00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:54,650

right now.

638

00:37:55,712 --> 00:38:00,415

That, what are some of the parts that were

challenging for you?

639

00:38:00,415 --> 00:38:04,571

Did you ever get to, so you seem to have

had an already really robust outline.

640

00:38:04,571 --> 00:38:07,592

because you had this event that was going

to happen.

641

00:38:07,592 --> 00:38:12,033

So you were able to kind of have that be

like a scaffold and build things around

642

00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:12,614

it.

643

00:38:12,614 --> 00:38:16,655

But when it came down to put pen to paper

or to sit in front of the laptop or

644

00:38:16,655 --> 00:38:22,238

however you write, was there any

challenges or things that came easier,

645

00:38:22,238 --> 00:38:24,898

things that you kind of had to sit with a

little longer?

646

00:38:25,518 --> 00:38:31,520

Hmm, you know, honestly Lisa, the whole

process was really difficult just because

647

00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,981

it was a new thing, right?

648

00:38:32,981 --> 00:38:37,983

Like I kept trying to equate it to writing

my dissertation, which was the only

649

00:38:37,983 --> 00:38:42,124

framework I had for like writing something

of this magnitude.

650

00:38:42,124 --> 00:38:45,726

And it clearly is very different from a

dissertation because your dissertation

651

00:38:45,726 --> 00:38:49,487

isn't necessarily meant to be like

entertaining and like enjoyable.

652

00:38:49,487 --> 00:38:51,568

It's like, it's research, right?

653

00:38:51,768 --> 00:38:52,808

Yeah.

654

00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:53,891

And so.

655

00:38:53,891 --> 00:38:54,473

that.

656

00:38:54,473 --> 00:38:54,982

Yeah.

657

00:38:54,982 --> 00:38:58,484

Exactly, the people on your committee and

maybe your mom and them like, you know, a

658

00:38:58,484 --> 00:38:59,904

grand total of seven.

659

00:39:01,205 --> 00:39:06,128

Yeah.

660

00:39:06,128 --> 00:39:10,651

Yeah, so it was really a difficult process

because I was trying to do something very

661

00:39:10,651 --> 00:39:11,511

new.

662

00:39:11,611 --> 00:39:15,426

Um, and I also am somebody who like

663

00:39:15,426 --> 00:39:18,688

I'm not super flowery in my language.

664

00:39:18,688 --> 00:39:22,352

And I think a lot of that is like being

trained as a psychologist to like write a

665

00:39:22,352 --> 00:39:24,754

certain way and like, okay, these are the

facts.

666

00:39:24,754 --> 00:39:27,757

Like you don't need to add too much like

interpretation.

667

00:39:27,757 --> 00:39:31,280

And so it was really hard for me to kind

of make a book that like, I feel like

668

00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,524

people would really get in like the

storytelling and you know, that kind of

669

00:39:35,524 --> 00:39:35,724

thing.

670

00:39:35,724 --> 00:39:39,547

So I actually worked with a writer, Tracy

Louis Giggott, Tracy Michelle Louis

671

00:39:39,547 --> 00:39:42,190

Giggott, who really helped me to kind of

like.

672

00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:45,030

pull the story pieces out of it, right?

673

00:39:45,150 --> 00:39:48,451

To make it something that people would

actually enjoy reading.

674

00:39:48,791 --> 00:39:52,612

So I think that the storytelling piece was

a little more difficult for me.

675

00:39:52,612 --> 00:39:58,294

And I also was really worried Lisa as a

podcaster, if my voice would translate on

676

00:39:58,294 --> 00:39:59,454

the page.

677

00:39:59,454 --> 00:40:03,395

So, you know, I think that people have an

expectation of like who Dr.

678

00:40:03,395 --> 00:40:07,637

Joy is when they hear me on the mic, or

like if I'm doing a speaking engagement,

679

00:40:07,637 --> 00:40:07,817

right?

680

00:40:07,817 --> 00:40:10,677

Like I think that there is a warmth that I

convey.

681

00:40:10,698 --> 00:40:14,840

And I was really worried that would not

translate on the page.

682

00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,702

And so I have been, it is always such a

pleasure to get feedback from readers that

683

00:40:18,702 --> 00:40:21,043

they do feel like it translated.

684

00:40:21,043 --> 00:40:25,845

Cause that probably was my biggest worry

was that like, I wouldn't get the tone

685

00:40:25,845 --> 00:40:26,085

right.

686

00:40:26,085 --> 00:40:29,327

And like it would feel too scholarly or

people would be like, oh, this doesn't

687

00:40:29,327 --> 00:40:29,967

sound like Dr.

688

00:40:29,967 --> 00:40:30,808

Joy.

689

00:40:31,068 --> 00:40:34,469

So I'm really glad to hear that it did

translate in that way.

690

00:40:35,999 --> 00:40:38,020

It absolutely did.

691

00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:42,402

And there's also a built in cheat code,

which is listening to the audio version.

692

00:40:42,402 --> 00:40:46,725

Because when I tell, when I tell y'all, I

believe that Dr.

693

00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:51,648

Joy Harden Bradford sat down one day and

read me this book over the course of two

694

00:40:51,648 --> 00:40:56,571

months, because it's, it's really, it's

cause you know, we have you, you know,

695

00:40:56,571 --> 00:41:02,414

you're in our ear on the podcast, you

know, but like to have these, um, to have

696

00:41:02,414 --> 00:41:03,463

you like,

697

00:41:03,463 --> 00:41:07,944

give this long, this, it's a rather, I

think about seven hours worth, I think,

698

00:41:07,944 --> 00:41:09,544

seven hours long.

699

00:41:09,684 --> 00:41:14,325

It really, maybe eight, it's a really,

it's such a gift.

700

00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:19,087

And I, there's a, there's a way in

Audible, which is what I used to do audio

701

00:41:19,087 --> 00:41:23,468

books, that you can make tabs, you can

like make clips, you can tab, tap the

702

00:41:23,468 --> 00:41:28,749

thing and like add a note or tap the clip

and then you can go back and listen to it.

703

00:41:28,749 --> 00:41:33,264

I got about like 40 clips of like things

that I wanna go back and, I'm like,

704

00:41:33,264 --> 00:41:34,506

feature in Audible.

705

00:41:34,506 --> 00:41:37,792

Ha ha ha.

706

00:41:37,792 --> 00:41:38,324

Okay.

707

00:41:38,324 --> 00:41:41,609

it's, it's like, I'm, I'm absolutely going

to show you cause I'm a fan girl.

708

00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:45,676

Cause like it was, I was looking cause you

can go back and look at all your bookmarks

709

00:41:45,676 --> 00:41:50,502

and you can manage your clips and it has

these little, I've got like,

710

00:41:52,543 --> 00:41:55,043

all of these things that it's like, oh

yeah, let me, that's a good one.

711

00:41:55,043 --> 00:41:55,964

I might ask about that.

712

00:41:55,964 --> 00:41:57,664

Like I don't think I ask about any of

them.

713

00:41:57,664 --> 00:41:59,565

I'm going to have to call you on the

phone.

714

00:41:59,565 --> 00:42:06,587

But, um, the, the thing I was, I was

excited about was indeed like, it really

715

00:42:06,587 --> 00:42:12,829

is feeling like we have you with us, you

know, and the warmth, the joy, the, the

716

00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:17,050

happiness in your voice, all of that

translated, I think incredibly well to the

717

00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:19,495

page and the, the

718

00:42:19,495 --> 00:42:23,520

The audio is just such a, another version,

another version of that.

719

00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,505

Did you, was the recording process weird

to like, or was it pretty much just like

720

00:42:27,505 --> 00:42:28,702

you do in the podcast?

721

00:42:28,702 --> 00:42:33,003

You know, at least I expected it to be

like, oh, I do this all the time, but it

722

00:42:33,003 --> 00:42:34,304

was very different, right?

723

00:42:34,304 --> 00:42:38,946

Because I'm in a studio by myself, there's

an engineer on the other side of the wall,

724

00:42:38,946 --> 00:42:43,768

and then there's a producer in your ear,

and I think he was in like New York or

725

00:42:43,768 --> 00:42:44,969

somewhere, right?

726

00:42:44,969 --> 00:42:48,290

And so he's saying like, oh, go back and

do this, or let's give that another try,

727

00:42:48,290 --> 00:42:48,490

right?

728

00:42:48,490 --> 00:42:51,791

And so usually, of course, when I'm doing

the podcast, like there's nobody, I mean,

729

00:42:51,791 --> 00:42:54,953

maybe my producers will say like, okay,

let's go ask this question, but they're

730

00:42:54,953 --> 00:42:56,653

not usually in my ear.

731

00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:00,875

And so that was a much more difficult

process than I anticipated, especially

732

00:43:00,875 --> 00:43:03,657

since I talk, you know, kind of for a

living at this point.

733

00:43:04,567 --> 00:43:05,087

Yeah.

734

00:43:05,087 --> 00:43:06,728

Oh, that's, that's amazing.

735

00:43:07,229 --> 00:43:12,034

Let me ask you throughout writing the

book, what did you learn?

736

00:43:12,034 --> 00:43:17,159

Do you have some key learnings that you've

gotten either from finishing the book,

737

00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:21,603

turning it in saying, okay, I released

this now I've done it, or key learnings

738

00:43:21,603 --> 00:43:27,128

from getting feedback from readers and

listeners that has given you, um, that's

739

00:43:27,128 --> 00:43:29,650

giving you something that you really

cherish.

740

00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:31,090

Hmm.

741

00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:34,811

I will say the key feedback or the key

piece of, you know, learning that I've

742

00:43:34,811 --> 00:43:38,172

gotten from finishing the book was that I

can actually do hard things.

743

00:43:38,172 --> 00:43:43,153

You know, because I definitely had some

imposter syndrome stuff kicking in there.

744

00:43:43,153 --> 00:43:48,115

And it's like, you know, there was so many

weeks of my therapy sessions dedicated to

745

00:43:48,115 --> 00:43:51,016

like book writing stuff like I feel like

until I finished.

746

00:43:51,016 --> 00:43:55,557

And then when it was time to market, it

was like a whole new slate of like new

747

00:43:55,557 --> 00:43:57,878

problems to talk about with my therapist.

748

00:43:57,878 --> 00:44:02,880

But I didn't expect so much of my mental

health necessarily to be wrapped up in the

749

00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,162

writing process, but I definitely got in

my head about how are people gonna receive

750

00:44:07,162 --> 00:44:09,683

it, and is it gonna translate?

751

00:44:09,784 --> 00:44:13,586

So I think the key piece that I take with

me is that I can do hard things and then

752

00:44:13,586 --> 00:44:16,727

let it go and kinda let it be what it is.

753

00:44:17,207 --> 00:44:21,669

I think from the readers, what I have

learned is that people are expecting more.

754

00:44:21,694 --> 00:44:21,974

Right?

755

00:44:21,974 --> 00:44:24,979

Like people are like, okay, well, this was

great, but when is the next one?

756

00:44:24,979 --> 00:44:26,321

Like, what is, what's happening?

757

00:44:26,321 --> 00:44:29,426

I'm like, oh my God, y'all, I don't know.

758

00:44:29,426 --> 00:44:31,609

I don't know if I got it in me again.

759

00:44:32,421 --> 00:44:36,083

now I got four more sessions, lining up

with therapists, something to talk about.

760

00:44:36,083 --> 00:44:40,025

Now I got to talk about the fear of

failure is one thing, man, fear of success

761

00:44:40,025 --> 00:44:41,485

is quite something else.

762

00:44:41,485 --> 00:44:42,446

Oh my goodness.

763

00:44:42,446 --> 00:44:44,106

That's what we're dealing with now.

764

00:44:46,908 --> 00:44:52,110

I really, I feel like the paint is not yet

dry on this book.

765

00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:52,624

It's like.

766

00:44:52,624 --> 00:44:53,325

Hehehehe

767

00:44:53,791 --> 00:44:56,974

It's like, can I, can I please have just a

teeny bit more time to rest, please?

768

00:44:56,974 --> 00:44:57,394

Please?

769

00:44:57,394 --> 00:45:00,897

Can I get like three more months, just

like a symbolic, just symbolically, let's

770

00:45:00,897 --> 00:45:03,800

have nine months go by before we start

thinking about anything else.

771

00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,101

Just symbolically.

772

00:45:06,603 --> 00:45:11,908

I was thinking, it's also really

gratifying to kind of know or warming to

773

00:45:11,908 --> 00:45:17,874

know and daring to know that of course, I

mean, I'm like sitting here like, Jordan,

774

00:45:17,874 --> 00:45:18,867

do you know who you are?

775

00:45:18,867 --> 00:45:19,307

what you mean?

776

00:45:19,307 --> 00:45:20,927

Of course I can do hard things.

777

00:45:20,927 --> 00:45:24,749

I'm like, you did build, you did write a,

you did, you know, go to graduate school

778

00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:29,271

and, you know, wrote a dissertation and

had a practice and then built something

779

00:45:29,271 --> 00:45:30,892

that's incredibly unique.

780

00:45:30,892 --> 00:45:36,494

That is like, it's inevitable, you know,

it's completely new, it's novel.

781

00:45:36,615 --> 00:45:40,676

And I say inevitable because it's unique,

but I think you also want people to be

782

00:45:40,676 --> 00:45:42,057

able to build these kinds of things.

783

00:45:42,057 --> 00:45:45,658

I remember one of your episodes where a

person was working on

784

00:45:45,707 --> 00:45:50,309

um, yoga and did a lot of like yoga events

and they were going to, and it just felt

785

00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:56,271

like you are encouraging us to do hard

things all the time, whether that's called

786

00:45:56,271 --> 00:46:01,013

that friend or maybe don't call that

friend or, you know, you are always

787

00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:03,294

encouraging us to do hard things.

788

00:46:03,294 --> 00:46:09,457

So the idea that you are somehow like,

Hmm, this is hard.

789

00:46:09,457 --> 00:46:13,858

It just, it, it just makes me, it's, for

me, that's like a big takeaway, like,

790

00:46:14,279 --> 00:46:14,399

Dr.

791

00:46:14,399 --> 00:46:15,603

Joy be struggling with stuff?

792

00:46:15,603 --> 00:46:16,344

What?

793

00:46:16,345 --> 00:46:17,969

What you talk, what you say now?

794

00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:18,691

What?

795

00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:22,470

Absolutely.

796

00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:26,533

But you know, Lisa, I think the difference

to me here was that therapy for black

797

00:46:26,533 --> 00:46:29,415

girls kind of was created by accident.

798

00:46:29,415 --> 00:46:34,458

Like I didn't sit down and say, like, I

want a business dedicated to like black

799

00:46:34,458 --> 00:46:35,399

women's mental health.

800

00:46:35,399 --> 00:46:39,221

Like I was kind of already doing that work

and it kind of grew as an extension of

801

00:46:39,221 --> 00:46:39,882

that.

802

00:46:39,882 --> 00:46:44,007

But I think the book was something that

was like, okay, I intentionally pitched

803

00:46:44,007 --> 00:46:44,808

this book.

804

00:46:44,808 --> 00:46:46,991

I said, I'm going to do this thing.

805

00:46:46,991 --> 00:46:50,675

And so it felt like one of the first

things in a very long time that I said

806

00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:53,579

like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and

then you gotta finish it.

807

00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:55,921

So it felt like a very different process

to me.

808

00:46:57,475 --> 00:46:58,875

Yeah, I can understand that.

809

00:46:58,875 --> 00:46:59,736

I can understand that.

810

00:46:59,736 --> 00:47:04,739

I think that looking at your story from a

distance and seeing therapy for black

811

00:47:04,739 --> 00:47:11,283

girls as, you know, a known entity, um, as

something that is already doing thriving

812

00:47:11,283 --> 00:47:15,306

and healing work in the community, it's

kind of, it is also, you get a little

813

00:47:15,306 --> 00:47:15,786

spoiled.

814

00:47:15,786 --> 00:47:18,287

You feel like, Oh, that's always been

here.

815

00:47:18,287 --> 00:47:22,050

You know, it's like, it's, well, it's what

it means to like, what you've done is

816

00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:23,530

build an institution.

817

00:47:23,863 --> 00:47:29,046

You've you've you really, I think you

have, and it really is so robust and

818

00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:30,007

necessary.

819

00:47:30,007 --> 00:47:35,010

And when, like in the chapter, you talk

about sisterhood over systems.

820

00:47:35,010 --> 00:47:44,517

You know, and you have created in therapy

for black girls, the podcast, the book,

821

00:47:44,517 --> 00:47:50,521

the sister circle community, the, you

know, all of these things that you've

822

00:47:50,521 --> 00:47:52,275

already given us such.

823

00:47:52,275 --> 00:47:58,320

powerful gifts and gifts that continue to

equip us, you know, and so it really

824

00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:08,808

becomes I don't know it's a rich

opportunity and a rare gift to talk with

825

00:48:08,808 --> 00:48:17,596

you about your process and that processes

are currently always ongoing and that we

826

00:48:17,596 --> 00:48:19,818

too are in the middle of a process.

827

00:48:19,818 --> 00:48:20,778

We too.

828

00:48:21,031 --> 00:48:25,853

want something and to get there will be a

journey and there will be steps to be

829

00:48:25,853 --> 00:48:26,753

taken.

830

00:48:27,053 --> 00:48:31,876

Like that just, I don't know, I just feel

like that's something that we, you know,

831

00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:35,778

we see the bit we see, I think we

sometimes get too accustomed to a before

832

00:48:35,778 --> 00:48:37,358

and after picture.

833

00:48:37,499 --> 00:48:40,020

You know, it's just the before.

834

00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:46,043

And then in about two seconds, up comes

the after, you know, or before and now.

835

00:48:46,043 --> 00:48:50,224

but all that ugly middle and the

uncertainty and the, oh my gosh, what was

836

00:48:50,224 --> 00:48:51,464

I thinking?

837

00:48:51,464 --> 00:48:53,244

All that's in the middle, you know?

838

00:48:53,244 --> 00:48:58,586

And so I just love how in talking about

your process a bit, you've given us the

839

00:48:58,586 --> 00:49:01,927

chance to think about our own processes.

840

00:49:01,927 --> 00:49:07,648

You close the book with sister acts, with

resources for ways we can encourage our

841

00:49:07,648 --> 00:49:08,569

sisters.

842

00:49:08,569 --> 00:49:11,870

There are some really wonderful tips in

there.

843

00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:15,523

Can you talk about why you thought it was

important to end the book?

844

00:49:15,523 --> 00:49:22,689

with a list of actions for different

things, for different, like this is

845

00:49:22,689 --> 00:49:28,073

connect with, hype them up, connect with

the janitorial and the custodial staff at

846

00:49:28,073 --> 00:49:28,674

work.

847

00:49:28,674 --> 00:49:33,617

For me, something I learned in grad school

is be nice to secretaries.

848

00:49:33,818 --> 00:49:39,363

These things, cash up your girl, send her

a playlist, all these different things.

849

00:49:39,363 --> 00:49:43,326

Why did you think it was important that

when we got to the end of this wonderful

850

00:49:43,326 --> 00:49:44,027

journey,

851

00:49:44,027 --> 00:49:47,698

that we were left with some kind of action

items.

852

00:49:48,326 --> 00:49:48,646

Mm-hmm.

853

00:49:48,646 --> 00:49:51,629

Yeah, because I didn't want it to be a

book that you just read and thought like,

854

00:49:51,629 --> 00:49:52,409

oh, that was cute.

855

00:49:52,409 --> 00:49:54,111

And then you just put it back on your

shelf, right?

856

00:49:54,111 --> 00:49:57,934

Like I wanted it to be something that you

then were moved to act.

857

00:49:57,934 --> 00:49:58,274

Right.

858

00:49:58,274 --> 00:50:00,696

And I think that there's also a ripple

effect, right?

859

00:50:00,696 --> 00:50:04,279

Like you sending your girl a cash app then

means that in a month, she might turn

860

00:50:04,279 --> 00:50:05,680

around and do that for somebody else.

861

00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,220

Right.

862

00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:09,623

And so I wanted it to be a way that we

could kind of continue to embody the

863

00:50:09,623 --> 00:50:12,825

spirit of sisterhood in a very tangible

way.

864

00:50:15,463 --> 00:50:15,923

love it.

865

00:50:15,923 --> 00:50:19,864

And I think that it was such a great,

strong thing to end on.

866

00:50:19,864 --> 00:50:22,645

It gave me some ideas for like things to

do.

867

00:50:22,645 --> 00:50:26,366

And also the way that you had so many

different types of examples, like that

868

00:50:26,366 --> 00:50:28,026

people's love languages are different.

869

00:50:28,026 --> 00:50:32,948

Like some person, like a cash app is going

to mean more to somebody than the flowers

870

00:50:32,948 --> 00:50:36,829

from Trader Joe's, you know, like, you

know, it just, I think that was really

871

00:50:36,829 --> 00:50:37,949

very powerful.

872

00:50:37,949 --> 00:50:40,910

I'm going to ask you the last question

that we ask everybody on Stitch Police

873

00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:41,470

Podcast.

874

00:50:41,470 --> 00:50:42,203

And it's this.

875

00:50:42,203 --> 00:50:46,429

The slogan of the Stitch Please podcast is

that we will help you get your stitch

876

00:50:46,429 --> 00:50:47,390

together.

877

00:50:47,711 --> 00:50:48,031

Dr.

878

00:50:48,031 --> 00:50:54,281

Joy Harden Bradford, it is my honor to ask

you, how would you help our audience get

879

00:50:54,281 --> 00:50:55,602

our stitch together?

880

00:50:57,454 --> 00:50:59,655

This feels like such a good question.

881

00:50:59,795 --> 00:51:05,099

I think I would help you to get your

stitch together by encouraging you to lean

882

00:51:05,099 --> 00:51:07,121

on the people in your circle.

883

00:51:07,121 --> 00:51:11,804

And if there is not a circle to do a

little bit more work to get a circle for

884

00:51:11,804 --> 00:51:16,328

yourself, because we were not meant to do

life alone and it is so much better and so

885

00:51:16,328 --> 00:51:19,409

much sweeter with a circle of sisters

around us.

886

00:51:22,007 --> 00:51:24,956

And with that, we are grateful to Dr.

887

00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:25,317

Joy.

888

00:51:25,317 --> 00:51:27,805

Thank you so much for being with us today.

889

00:51:27,805 --> 00:51:29,890

This has been a true delight.

890

00:51:30,426 --> 00:51:31,810

Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.

891

00:51:31,810 --> 00:51:33,253

It was such a pleasure.

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